Talk:Missal of Silos

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This page was featured on XKCD 2099 today. -- TheAnarcat (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:xkcd in popular culture when to include such references in the article. In this case, it should not be included. Gial Ackbar (talk) 18:25, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

On the other hand, it can be mentioned on here (see Talk:Wood).--AnotherAnonymous (talk) 13:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Not oldest, not 11th century

The superlative claim "oldest known paper document created in the western world in Christendom; it dates to the 11th century AD" is not mentioned on page 3 of Crespo, Carmen; Vinas, Vincente (1984). "The Preservation and Restoration of Paper Records and Books: A RAMP Study with Guidelines" (pdf). United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. p. 3. Retrieved 2013-07-10., there is no mention of missals or Silos anywhere in that source. Or the 11th century.

According to Studies on Medieval Liturgical and Legal Manuscripts from Spain and Southern Italy (Roger E. Reynolds, Ashgate, 2009, ISBN 0754659976) the Missal of Silos is from the 12th century, not 11th. The Missal of San Millan de la Cogolla is actually from the 11th century.

"The oldest known paper document in the West is the Missel of Silos from the 11th century." was added to Paper by Piotrus on 23:59, 29 October 2005 without a citation. In 2009, this was copied over to History of paper, and has remained there without a citation ever since.

It looks like Piotrus created Missal of Silos at the same time as adding the entry to Paper, and cited two sources. [1] which contains the entry "Paper invented in China in the 2nd century AD and spread to the West by the Arabs through Spain. The oldest known paper document in the West is the Missel of Silos (near Burgos) from the 11th century." -- Copyright © 1997 - 2009 Thomas Nagel. I don't think that's Thomas Nagel; this Thomas Nagel appears to be a baseball and poetry fan in France with a personal web page last updated in 1997. The other source is a dead link, http://www.quid.fr/2000/Q048000.htm, and I can't find anything at the Wayback machine.

I don't see any reason to keep this unsourced claim. It can be put back later if anyone can verify it.

The Catholic Encyclopedia (Herbermann, etc. Knights of Columbus. Catholic Truth Committee. Encyclopedia Press. 1913) says both the Missal of Silos and the Missal of San Millan de la Cogolla are from the 11th century, but doesn't claim Silos is older. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

It is note 1 at the bottom of page 3 of the UNESCO source. Words fail me! Thye claim is widely made - this search gets you back to 1947 on the first page. Johnbod (talk) 19:31, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Quick search yields for example Armenian Philology in the Modern Era: From Manuscript to Digital Text. BRILL. 6 June 2014. pp. 9–. ISBN 978-90-04-27096-1. but we have to be mindful of WP:CITOGENESIS. But the UNESCO document dates to before Wikipedia and states "The pages of the Mozarabic Missal from the Monastery of Santo Domingo de Silos are considered to be the first examples of European paper. The palaeographic characteristics of the text and the fact that the Mozarabic liturgy was abolished in Spain in 1080 during the papacy of Gregory VI1 show that the Missal must have been written before that date. " so I think we are good. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes I missed that, and have been appropriately bitten and told to stay in my lane. Typical. Sorry to bother you. It is kind of funny that it remained on History of paper for 10 years without a citation, but it's cited now. So that's helpful. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

The article has been protected, so I'll leave this here. According to this source (and a few others) there is a manuscript work on paper in the library at El Escorial which is dated to 1009. It seems to be in Arabic, so perhaps it does not count, even if written in al-Andalus? 213.205.198.156 (talk) 11:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for this. This article currently says "Europe", per the UNESCO source, but that might be wrong. Until yesterday it said variants of "created in the western world in Christendom", which is presumably still correct, al-Andalus being in one but not the other. Can we work out where this was written? Since the missal is really only/mainly notable for its early Western use of paper, this should still be kept in the article. Johnbod (talk) 14:20, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

In his 1939 paper in The Art Bulletin on early Spanish art, Meyer Schapiro described it as the "earliest surviving Latin manuscript in paper".(see fn.188, p.366: [2])

Scholarship may have moved on since then, of course, but that is the best and most precise description I have found. There are other early documents on paper from Silos, including a Latin glossary, and a Latin-Arabic glossary, but dating is often difficult. 213.205.198.156 (talk) 14:43, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2019

I'd like to propose that words Europe (or Europe) and 1080 should be linked in the article's first sentence. Respectfully, anonymous IP -90.179.120.43 (talk) 19:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)}}

 Partly done: Year not linked per WP:DATELINK. – Jonesey95 (talk) 11:44, 20 January 2019 (UTC)